Dreamer upon the board - Revision history

Apheori: .

2013-05-03T15:57:43Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:57, 3 May 2013
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	The dreamer, whose name is really Coraline, says of course there is free will<ref>Though she cannot speak to the idea of divine foreknowledge because she really, really does not want it to be the case. Not when her very plan hinges on the gods not knowing what she's up to at all, let alone ahead of time.</ref> - it's what keeps the universe from imploding in on itself. Were there not free will and a subsequent clash between a multitude of minds, that would mean the universe is in truth but a single mind - and a single mind would have gone too entirely mad to persist by now, holding pieces of madness like herself so securely in it.		The dreamer, whose name is really Coraline, says of course there is free will<ref>Though she cannot speak to the idea of divine foreknowledge because she really, really does not want it to be the case. Not when her very plan hinges on the gods not knowing what she's up to at all, let alone ahead of time.</ref> - it's what keeps the universe from imploding in on itself. Were there not free will and a subsequent clash between a multitude of minds, that would mean the universe is in truth but a single mind - and a single mind would have gone too entirely mad to persist by now, holding pieces of madness like herself so securely in it.

	Perhaps this is so, but I don't buy it. Why should there necessarily be free will at all? ~~Stuff~~ happens. Subsequent stuff happens. Choices are made based on stuff that happened. And the story? It's just a way to drive us forward, but that doesn't mean it's meaningless, either. We may not be the authors of our choices, but it doesn't make them not still our choices, or make them not affect us.		Perhaps this is so, but I don't buy it. Why should there necessarily be free will at all? Regardless of one's view of time or how changeable past or future are, stuff happens. Subsequent stuff happens. Choices are made based on stuff that happened. And the story? It's just a way to drive us forward, but that doesn't mean it's meaningless, either. We may not be the original authors of our choices, but it doesn't make them not still our choices, or make them not affect us.

	Or maybe the universe is just insane.		Or maybe the universe is just insane.

Apheori: Uh.

2013-05-03T15:54:22Z

Uh.

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:54, 3 May 2013
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	There is an argument for saying that divine foreknowledge is incompatible with free will.<ref>In truth there are probably several.</ref>		There is an argument for saying that divine foreknowledge is incompatible with free will.<ref>In truth there are probably several.</ref>

	~~One could argue with a cookie and it would work well enough, for cookies are tasty things, but there is typically little terribly momentous about a cookie. Or one could~~ argue with a story - place a dreamer upon the board and call her Protagonist, give her a grand destiny that she could choose or not to fulfil, and see what she does.		So let us argue with a story - place a dreamer upon the board and call her Protagonist, give her a grand destiny that she could choose or not to fulfil, and see what she does.

	~~So the~~ dreamer considers, loiters ~~for awhile~~ in the celestial lobby of the universe, looking around, making up her mind. She listens to the whispers of the stars and the songs of the living and in time she hatches her Mad Plan, a plan that had been with her from the start but that was entirely up to her just what to actually do with it. Once decided, however, the plan is out, set in motion~~, and the only thing for it is to see it through~~, for now it simply is~~. The~~ plan is true, even if she still has almost no idea what the details might entail.		The dreamer considers, loiters in the celestial lobby of the universe, looking around, making up her mind. She listens to the whispers of the stars and the songs of the living and in time she hatches her Mad Plan, a plan that had been with her from the start but that was entirely up to her just what to actually do with it. Once decided, however, the plan is out, set in motion, for now it simply is: the plan is true, even if she still has almost no idea what the details might entail.

	The gods know it. They must, according to the man outside the pastry shop who mutters at length about the apotheosis of cheese, for the Cheese God knows all, for the Cheese God must know all, for He is the Cheese God, among other gods.<ref>Gods by the bushel, gods by the pound... gods for every occasion, as it were.</ref> ~~Surely at least some of them know it all.~~ So if they do know it all, these gods, then they'll have known it all all along, because ''all'' includes the outcome of Protagonist's plan, and her destiny, and her dog, and even the rhino that ate the moon long before any of this began. All, really, is everything. It's all part of everything, and it always was.		The gods know it. They must, according to the man outside the pastry shop who mutters at length about the apotheosis of cheese, for the Cheese God knows all, for the Cheese God must know all, for He is the Cheese God, among other gods.<ref>Gods by the bushel, gods by the pound... gods for every occasion, as it were.</ref> So if they do know it all, these gods, then they'll have known it all all along, because ''all'' includes the outcome of Protagonist's plan, and her destiny, and her dog, and even the rhino that ate the moon long before any of this began. All, really, is everything. It's all part of everything, and it always was.

	So the gods will have known all along. Even before the dreamer Protagonist was placed upon the board, they knew. Before she made her plan and chose to step into the world proper and go through with it, they knew she would. But since they already knew, and they could not have been wrong,<ref>For they are Gods and such is the nature of proper noun Gods.</ref> there could have been no possibility or choice for the dreamer to have not made the plan she did, for her to have not gone through with it, because then this would not have been what they had known. Indeed, because the plan effectively preceded her, it could not even be truly said to be her Mad Plan, but merely a plan that she enacted, pawn upon the board.		So the gods will have known all along. Even before the dreamer Protagonist was placed upon the board, they knew. Before she made her plan and chose to step into the world proper and go through with it, they knew she would. But since they already knew, and they could not have been wrong,<ref>For they are Gods and such is the nature of proper noun Gods.</ref> there could have been no possibility or choice for the dreamer to have not made the plan she did, for her to have not gone through with it, because then this would not have been what they had known. Indeed, because the plan effectively preceded her, it could not even be truly said to be her Mad Plan, but merely a plan that she enacted, pawn upon the board.

	None of it was her choice, because she is not capable of affecting the past.		None of it was her choice, because she is not capable of affecting the past, and thus with divine foreknowledge there can be no free will.

	~~Is she~~?		Can there?

	=== Done is done, right? ===		=== Done is done, right? ===
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	Perhaps the future is simply 'open'. Gods know everything there is to know, but they don't know the future for sure any more than the rest of us, because future is future and it just hasn't happened yet. Even the Cheese God himself, of pastry shop fame, knows not exactly what will happen, but He knows enough, more than enough - everything that can happen, every possibility, every thread in the intricate and infinite web of irreality, and even the thickness of each, which choice is most likely given all the preceding. But there is no specific knowledge of the future to affect in the past because the future simply doesn't work that way.		Perhaps the future is simply 'open'. Gods know everything there is to know, but they don't know the future for sure any more than the rest of us, because future is future and it just hasn't happened yet. Even the Cheese God himself, of pastry shop fame, knows not exactly what will happen, but He knows enough, more than enough - everything that can happen, every possibility, every thread in the intricate and infinite web of irreality, and even the thickness of each, which choice is most likely given all the preceding. But there is no specific knowledge of the future to affect in the past because the future simply doesn't work that way.

	~~=== And the moral here? ===~~		But each of these is based on an assumption as well - that time either flows or it doesn't. If it flows, then there is a future that can act as bright unknown, but past is good and past. If it doesn't, then canvas of the board is a whole lot more complicated, but there is room for effects preceding cause on such a board, and indeed perhaps far stranger seeming yet.
	~~There probably isn~~'t ~~one, really~~. ~~The dreamer~~, ~~whose name~~ is ~~really Coraline~~, ~~says of course there~~ is ~~free will~~, ~~because otherwise we'd all be dead. Were there not free will and a subsequent clash between a multitude~~ of ~~minds, that would mean~~ the ~~universe~~ is ~~in truth~~ but a ~~single mind -~~ and ~~a single mind would have gone too entirely mad to persist by now, holding pieces of madness like herself so securely in it~~.

	~~I've learned not to argue with her. On those rare occasions when she uses logic~~, ~~there~~ is ~~no dissuading her, but unfortunately she uses things that look like logic far more often~~ and ~~to try to dissuade those~~ is ~~simply to embrace the madness~~. ~~All in all~~ it'~~s not healthy~~.		=== So what is time? ===
			Those who study chaos dynamics could tell you that time depends on eigenstuff, which means something is involved - and ''something'' is involved in everything. Meantime these arguments here could fit either way. Free will could fit either way - maybe it isn't incompatible with divine foreknowledge, but it doesn't mean we necessarily have both, or either.

	~~As for me~~, ~~I like to think everything that can happen does happen and thus everything I've told you~~ is ~~true, even the lies. This would mean that the universe is barking mad~~, of course~~, and that~~ the ~~Gods know all and nothing and there are uncountably infinite dreamers~~, ~~but~~ really.~~.. they~~ all ~~do make sense~~, ~~if you look at them properly~~. ~~Assume something, logically follow, okay. The cat knows~~ it ~~all~~. ~~I see it now. These possibilities all make sense. The~~ universe is ~~already good~~ and mad, ~~even~~ so ~~the future either is or isn't open~~. ~~If it isn't, then how do we know time doesn't work backwards? If it is, how will we know when we've fallen off the edge of the opening?~~		The dreamer, whose name is really Coraline, says of course there is free will<ref>Though she cannot speak to the idea of divine foreknowledge because she really, really does not want it to be the case. Not when her very plan hinges on the gods not knowing what she's up to at all, let alone ahead of time.</ref> - it's what keeps the universe from imploding in on itself. Were there not free will and a subsequent clash between a multitude of minds, that would mean the universe is in truth but a single mind - and a single mind would have gone too entirely mad to persist by now, holding pieces of madness like herself so securely in it.

	~~And yes~~, I ~~have been arguing with Coraline~~, ~~now~~ that ~~you ask~~. ~~She~~'~~s really quite sensible if you take~~ the ~~time to listen~~.		Perhaps this is so, but I don't buy it. Why should there necessarily be free will at all? Stuff happens. Subsequent stuff happens. Choices are made based on stuff that happened. And the story? It's just a way to drive us forward, but that doesn't mean it's meaningless, either. We may not be the authors of our choices, but it doesn't make them not still our choices, or make them not affect us.

			Or maybe the universe is just insane.

	=== Notes ===		=== Notes ===
	<references/>		<references/>

Apheori: The universe is insane.

2013-05-03T15:06:09Z

The universe is insane.

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:06, 3 May 2013
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	So the gods will have known all along. Even before the dreamer Protagonist was placed upon the board, they knew. Before she made her plan and chose to step into the world proper and go through with it, they knew she would. But since they already knew, and they could not have been wrong,<ref>For they are Gods and such is the nature of proper noun Gods.</ref> there could have been no possibility or choice for the dreamer to have not made the plan she did, for her to have not gone through with it, because then this would not have been what they had known. Indeed, because the plan effectively preceded her, it could not even be truly said to be her Mad Plan, but merely a plan that she enacted, pawn upon the board.		So the gods will have known all along. Even before the dreamer Protagonist was placed upon the board, they knew. Before she made her plan and chose to step into the world proper and go through with it, they knew she would. But since they already knew, and they could not have been wrong,<ref>For they are Gods and such is the nature of proper noun Gods.</ref> there could have been no possibility or choice for the dreamer to have not made the plan she did, for her to have not gone through with it, because then this would not have been what they had known. Indeed, because the plan effectively preceded her, it could not even be truly said to be her Mad Plan, but merely a plan that she enacted, pawn upon the board.

	None of it was her choice, because she is not capable of affecting the past.		None of it was her choice, because she is not capable of affecting the past.

			Is she?

	=== Done is done, right? ===		=== Done is done, right? ===
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	Perhaps it is up to her what the gods have always known about what she would do. By her choosing it, they know, and have known it all along. Should she choose something else instead, the gods will have known that something else all along. Thus the dreamer, mortal though she may be,<ref>Or claim to be, though that's a separate issue; what we call 'mortal' may not even be the same here as there.</ref> can indeed affect the past, a past that the gods then use to affect their futures to help or hinder as they will.		Perhaps it is up to her what the gods have always known about what she would do. By her choosing it, they know, and have known it all along. Should she choose something else instead, the gods will have known that something else all along. Thus the dreamer, mortal though she may be,<ref>Or claim to be, though that's a separate issue; what we call 'mortal' may not even be the same here as there.</ref> can indeed affect the past, a past that the gods then use to affect their futures to help or hinder as they will.

	Perhaps the future is simply 'open'. Gods know everything there is to know, but they don't know the future for sure any more than the rest of us, because future is future and it just hasn't happened yet. Even the Cheese God himself, of pastry shop fame, knows not exactly what will happen, but he knows enough, more than enough - everything that can happen, every possibility, every thread in the intricate and infinite web of irreality, and even the thickness of each, which choice is most likely given all the preceding. But there is no specific knowledge of the future to affect in the past because the future simply doesn't work that way.		Perhaps the future is simply 'open'. Gods know everything there is to know, but they don't know the future for sure any more than the rest of us, because future is future and it just hasn't happened yet. Even the Cheese God himself, of pastry shop fame, knows not exactly what will happen, but He knows enough, more than enough - everything that can happen, every possibility, every thread in the intricate and infinite web of irreality, and even the thickness of each, which choice is most likely given all the preceding. But there is no specific knowledge of the future to affect in the past because the future simply doesn't work that way.

	=== And the moral here? ===		=== And the moral here? ===
	There probably isn't one, really. The dreamer, whose name is really Coraline, says of course there is free will, because otherwise we'd all be dead. Were there not free will and a subsequent clash between minds, that would mean the universe is in truth but a single mind - and a single mind would have gone too entirely mad to persist by now, holding pieces of madness like herself so securely in it.		There probably isn't one, really. The dreamer, whose name is really Coraline, says of course there is free will, because otherwise we'd all be dead. Were there not free will and a subsequent clash between a multitude of minds, that would mean the universe is in truth but a single mind - and a single mind would have gone too entirely mad to persist by now, holding pieces of madness like herself so securely in it.

	I've learned not to argue with her. On those rare occasions when she uses logic, there is no dissuading her, but unfortunately she uses things that look like logic far more often and to try to dissuade those is simply to embrace the madness. All in all it's not healthy.		I've learned not to argue with her. On those rare occasions when she uses logic, there is no dissuading her, but unfortunately she uses things that look like logic far more often and to try to dissuade those is simply to embrace the madness. All in all it's not healthy.

	As for me, I like to think everything that can happen does happen and thus everything I've told you is true, even the lies. This would mean that the universe is barking mad, of course, and that the Gods know all and nothing and there are uncountably infinite dreamers, but really... they all do make sense, if you look at them properly. Assume something, logically follow, okay. The cat knows it all. I see it now.		As for me, I like to think everything that can happen does happen and thus everything I've told you is true, even the lies. This would mean that the universe is barking mad, of course, and that the Gods know all and nothing and there are uncountably infinite dreamers, but really... they all do make sense, if you look at them properly. Assume something, logically follow, okay. The cat knows it all. I see it now. These possibilities all make sense. The universe is already good and mad, even so the future either is or isn't open. If it isn't, then how do we know time doesn't work backwards? If it is, how will we know when we've fallen off the edge of the opening?

	~~And yes~~, ~~I have been arguing with Coraline~~, ~~now that you ask. She~~'~~s really quite sensible if you take~~ the ~~time to listen.~~

			And yes, I have been arguing with Coraline, now that you ask. She's really quite sensible if you take the time to listen.

	=== Notes ===		=== Notes ===
	<references/>		<references/>

Apheori: Cows.

2013-05-03T14:55:43Z

Cows.

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:55, 3 May 2013
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	There is an argument for saying that divine foreknowledge is incompatible with free will.<ref>In truth there are probably several.</ref>		There is an argument for saying that divine foreknowledge is incompatible with free will.<ref>In truth there are probably several.</ref>

	One could argue with a cookie, and it would work well enough, for cookies are tasty things, but there is typically little terribly momentous about a cookie. Or one could argue with a story - place a dreamer upon the board and call her Protagonist, give her a grand destiny that she could choose or not to fulfil, and see what she does.		One could argue with a cookie and it would work well enough, for cookies are tasty things, but there is typically little terribly momentous about a cookie. Or one could argue with a story - place a dreamer upon the board and call her Protagonist, give her a grand destiny that she could choose or not to fulfil, and see what she does.

	So the dreamer considers, loiters for awhile in the celestial lobby of the universe, looking around, making up her mind. She listens to the whispers of the stars and the songs of the living and in time she hatches her Mad Plan, a plan that had been with her from the start but that was entirely up to her just what to actually do with it. Once decided, however, the plan is out, set in motion, and the only thing for it is to see it through, for now it simply is. The plan is true, even if she still has almost no idea what the details might entail.		So the dreamer considers, loiters for awhile in the celestial lobby of the universe, looking around, making up her mind. She listens to the whispers of the stars and the songs of the living and in time she hatches her Mad Plan, a plan that had been with her from the start but that was entirely up to her just what to actually do with it. Once decided, however, the plan is out, set in motion, and the only thing for it is to see it through, for now it simply is. The plan is true, even if she still has almost no idea what the details might entail.

	~~And~~ the plan is ~~decided~~.		The gods know it. They must, according to the man outside the pastry shop who mutters at length about the apotheosis of cheese, for the Cheese God knows all, for the Cheese God must know all, for He is the Cheese God, among other gods.<ref>Gods by the bushel, gods by the pound... gods for every occasion, as it were.</ref> Surely at least some of them know it all. So if they do know it all, these gods, then they'll have known it all all along, because ''all'' includes the outcome of Protagonist's plan, and her destiny, and her dog, and even the rhino that ate the moon long before any of this began. All, really, is everything. It's all part of everything, and it always was.

	~~The~~ gods ~~know~~. ~~They must, according to~~ the ~~man outside the pastry shop who mutters at length about~~ the ~~apotheosis of cheese~~, ~~for~~ the ~~Cheese God knows all~~, ~~for the Cheese God must know all~~, ~~for He is the Cheese God~~, ~~among other gods.~~<ref>Gods by the ~~bushel, gods by the pound... gods for every occasion, as it were~~.</ref> ~~Surely at least some of them know it all. So if they do know~~ it ~~all, these gods~~, then they~~'ll have~~ known ~~it all all along~~, because ~~''all'' includes~~ the ~~outcome of Protagonist's~~ plan~~, and~~ her ~~destiny~~, ~~and~~ her ~~dog. All~~, ~~really~~, ~~is everything. It's all part of everything, and it always was~~.		So the gods will have known all along. Even before the dreamer Protagonist was placed upon the board, they knew. Before she made her plan and chose to step into the world proper and go through with it, they knew she would. But since they already knew, and they could not have been wrong,<ref>For they are Gods and such is the nature of proper noun Gods.</ref> there could have been no possibility or choice for the dreamer to have not made the plan she did, for her to have not gone through with it, because then this would not have been what they had known. Indeed, because the plan effectively preceded her, it could not even be truly said to be her Mad Plan, but merely a plan that she enacted, pawn upon the board.

	~~So the gods will have known all along. Even before the dreamer Protagonist~~ was ~~placed upon the board, they knew. Before she made~~ her ~~plan and chose to step into the world proper and go through with it~~, ~~they knew~~ she ~~would. But since they already knew, and they could~~ not ~~have been wrong,<ref>For they are Gods and such is the nature~~ of ~~proper noun Gods.</ref> there was no choice for the dreamer to have not made the plan she did, for her to have not gone through with it. Indeed, because~~ the ~~plan effectively preceded her, it could not even be truly said to be her Mad Plan, but merely a plan she was given~~.		None of it was her choice, because she is not capable of affecting the past.

			=== Done is done, right? ===
			She would say yes, done ''is'' done. But she is also no stranger to things not necessarily happening in order - done may be done, but that doesn't mean it's done when we think it is. Like she once said to me, "Objects shall fall upwards, perhaps? Effect precedes cause... but of course it does. I am standing on my head because you are about to dare me to do so. I trust you to be you."

			Sense is out the window.

	~~But~~ the ~~dreamer, and even the god sitting next to her whom she would call sister, is not from this universe~~. ~~How could~~		Or perhaps the assumptions are wrong.

	~~''I~~ know ~~things you do not''~~, she ~~says~~. ~~''And~~ the ~~one sitting next to me~~, she ~~knows even more. But it wasn't her plan either~~, ~~for how could it~~ be~~? She wasn~~'~~t even alive when it was born.~~'' ~~She still doesn't~~ even ~~know who she is~~, the ~~dreamer doesn't say~~.		Perhaps it is up to her what the gods have always known about what she would do. By her choosing it, they know, and have known it all along. Should she choose something else instead, the gods will have known that something else all along. Thus the dreamer, mortal though she may be,<ref>Or claim to be, though that's a separate issue; what we call 'mortal' may not even be the same here as there.</ref> can indeed affect the past, a past that the gods then use to affect their futures to help or hinder as they will.

			Perhaps the future is simply 'open'. Gods know everything there is to know, but they don't know the future for sure any more than the rest of us, because future is future and it just hasn't happened yet. Even the Cheese God himself, of pastry shop fame, knows not exactly what will happen, but he knows enough, more than enough - everything that can happen, every possibility, every thread in the intricate and infinite web of irreality, and even the thickness of each, which choice is most likely given all the preceding. But there is no specific knowledge of the future to affect in the past because the future simply doesn't work that way.

			=== And the moral here? ===
			There probably isn't one, really. The dreamer, whose name is really Coraline, says of course there is free will, because otherwise we'd all be dead. Were there not free will and a subsequent clash between minds, that would mean the universe is in truth but a single mind - and a single mind would have gone too entirely mad to persist by now, holding pieces of madness like herself so securely in it.

			I've learned not to argue with her. On those rare occasions when she uses logic, there is no dissuading her, but unfortunately she uses things that look like logic far more often and to try to dissuade those is simply to embrace the madness. All in all it's not healthy.

			As for me, I like to think everything that can happen does happen and thus everything I've told you is true, even the lies. This would mean that the universe is barking mad, of course, and that the Gods know all and nothing and there are uncountably infinite dreamers, but really... they all do make sense, if you look at them properly. Assume something, logically follow, okay. The cat knows it all. I see it now.

			And yes, I have been arguing with Coraline, now that you ask. She's really quite sensible if you take the time to listen.


			=== Notes ===
	<references/>		<references/>

Apheori: I've lost it. It's May and I've lost it.

2013-05-03T13:25:58Z

I've lost it. It's May and I've lost it.

New page

There is an argument for saying that divine foreknowledge is incompatible with free will.<ref>In truth there are probably several.</ref>

One could argue with a cookie, and it would work well enough, for cookies are tasty things, but there is typically little terribly momentous about a cookie. Or one could argue with a story - place a dreamer upon the board and call her Protagonist, give her a grand destiny that she could choose or not to fulfil, and see what she does.

So the dreamer considers, loiters for awhile in the celestial lobby of the universe, looking around, making up her mind. She listens to the whispers of the stars and the songs of the living and in time she hatches her Mad Plan, a plan that had been with her from the start but that was entirely up to her just what to actually do with it. Once decided, however, the plan is out, set in motion, and the only thing for it is to see it through, for now it simply is. The plan is true, even if she still has almost no idea what the details might entail.

And the plan is decided.

The gods know. They must, according to the man outside the pastry shop who mutters at length about the apotheosis of cheese, for the Cheese God knows all, for the Cheese God must know all, for He is the Cheese God, among other gods.<ref>Gods by the bushel, gods by the pound... gods for every occasion, as it were.</ref> Surely at least some of them know it all. So if they do know it all, these gods, then they'll have known it all all along, because ''all'' includes the outcome of Protagonist's plan, and her destiny, and her dog. All, really, is everything. It's all part of everything, and it always was.

So the gods will have known all along. Even before the dreamer Protagonist was placed upon the board, they knew. Before she made her plan and chose to step into the world proper and go through with it, they knew she would. But since they already knew, and they could not have been wrong,<ref>For they are Gods and such is the nature of proper noun Gods.</ref> there was no choice for the dreamer to have not made the plan she did, for her to have not gone through with it. Indeed, because the plan effectively preceded her, it could not even be truly said to be her Mad Plan, but merely a plan she was given.

But the dreamer, and even the god sitting next to her whom she would call sister, is not from this universe. How could

''I know things you do not'', she says. ''And the one sitting next to me, she knows even more. But it wasn't her plan either, for how could it be? She wasn't even alive when it was born.'' She still doesn't even know who she is, the dreamer doesn't say.

<references/>